All About The Joy
All About The Joy is a weekly hang-out with friends in the neighborhood! We share insight, advice, funny-isms and we choose to always try and find the positive, the silver lining, the "light" in all of it. AATJ comes from the simple concept that at the end of the day we all want to have more JOY than not. So, this is a cool place to unwind, have a laugh and share some time with friends!
All About The Joy
Open Minds: Navigating Systemic Inequalities and Cultural Acceptance
This episode dives into the complexities of diversity, equity, and inclusion while exploring the triggering responses some individuals have when addressing issues that uplift marginalized voices. The hosts reflect on personal experiences and systemic barriers in hiring, emphasizing the importance of awareness, listening, and collaborative progress.
• Discussion about a LinkedIn post on supporting Black women
• Insights on defensive reactions associated with conversations on privilege
• Exploration of scarcity mindset as a barrier to inclusion
• Examination of hiring biases and systemic racism
• Addressing the need for understanding and education in conversations about race
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Music By Geovane Bruno, Moments, 3481
Editing by Team A-J
Host, Carmen Lezeth
DISCLAIMER: As always, please do your own research and understand that the opinions in this podcast and livestream are meant for entertainment purposes only. States and other areas may have different rules and regulations governing certain aspects discussed in this podcast. Nothing in our podcast or livestream is meant to be medical or legal advice. Please use common sense, and when in doubt, ask a professional for advice, assistance, help and guidance.
Hey, welcome to All About the Joy of the Private Lounge. And on this week's episode, I pulled out a vintage episode between me and Andrea when we were recording podcasts on Zoom, so it's a little wonky to watch because it's a little bit old school I mean, if 2022 is old school but it's a topic that was relevant back then and, unfortunately, is still relevant today. So it's about 24 minutes. It's an interesting episode. I would love to see what you think of it. And, yeah, thank you always for stopping by. Here you go. Okay, hey, so it's so good to have you back. I'm glad that you're here. I think we're going to be doing these on a more regular basis. So, for people who are not watching the YouTube video that I've just started on my website and on my YouTube channel, andrea Nunez is back with us and I think you're going to be doing this on a more regular basis, right? Am I just crossing my fingers on that? Yes, I will be here whenever you will have me.
Carmen Lezeth:And then maybe at some point somebody will sponsor us and we'll just be able to do a show together, which would be fantastic. But for now we're just doing this little thing, all about the joy, and we're always going to try to bring it to business. But really the whole idea for me is just to be always looking at the most positive possible outcomes of any situation that's happening in life. But your expertise and what you do why don't you tell us a little bit about what you do and how you help people? And if you want to talk about your company or not, it's totally up to you. But I thought I'd give you that form too, because I didn't last time.
Andrea Nunez:Sure, so I do consulting work and coaching primarily with small businesses, and we work on strategic planning and leadership development, succession planning, and those things are often intrinsically linked with each other, as well as executive coaching. So you know, we work with the owners or the executives, as well as their teams, and try to get the organization to a place that it's healthy, right Ideally for me, doing good in the world, and that it's a healthy organization in terms of what it's actually doing and that it's profitable. All of those things, and I think all of those things are linked as well.
Carmen Lezeth:So do you have your own personal website or do you just generally? Because you didn't mention your company name, I did last time, didn't know if you wanted to, just I do not have a personal website.
Andrea Nunez:My company is the Genesis group. The Genesis groupcom. It's G E N Y S Y S.
Carmen Lezeth:Yeah, it is spelled a little weird. I'll put it in the show notes again in case people.
Andrea Nunez:So what is it? It's new, like Genesis systems. You know S-Y-S, so that's what it stands for.
Carmen Lezeth:I never knew that.
Andrea Nunez:You've done your learning for the day. You can call it a day. I can call it a day, Well yeah, let's talk about.
Carmen Lezeth:I had a whole different idea planned for this episode, but you know I emailed you the minute something happened on LinkedIn, so I want to share with people what happened on this one part of LinkedIn. Ladavia S Drain, I think that's how you say her name. She is a lawyer. She is the head of global inclusion, diversity and equity at Amazon Web Services. I don't even think I follow her, but I am now.
Carmen Lezeth:But somebody else had written something, and so you know how that happens when you're a friend of somebody's, you see what's on their feet as well. And she had written this post that said, until it is no longer necessary, on every single hashtag, iwd day, international Women's Day, right, I will post this as a reminder and take action myself too. And then it has a little hand pointing downward and it says hire Black women, promote Black women, protect Black women, pay Black women. And it was just this post, and people, of course, commented on it, and I was and am beside myself as to the negative, nasty comments that are still on there Now. The comment that I responded to a few times in a very nice and professional way I did. That person has since deleted their initial comment, and I think it's because at some point I turned around and said to them what are you doing, like? But let me read you what they wrote Don't we wish we?
Andrea Nunez:could all do that Like what are you doing on social media?
Carmen Lezeth:Let me read what their response was. They have since deleted it and I'm not going to share their name because I think they had maybe a come to Jesus moment or whatever you want to call it, and they deleted it. But there are plenty of other ones still on there this morning because I looked at them. They wrote your post is offensive, it is divisive, racist and sexist. It is not empowering nor positive. It is not admirable. It is not empowering nor positive. It is not admirable. Replace one color with another color and we're all ready for civil war. Higher talent, promote talent, protect humanity, fair wages for all.
Carmen Lezeth:Recently I listened to a group of women in this case, speak on leadership and one said I am because you are Sorry. I have to gasp a little bit Sorry, she wrote it. Okay, let me finish what she wrote, cause this has since been deleted. So you are because I am. Another said how do we make the whole visible? How do we fight for everybody? This I could relate to. We can sharpen one another so we can rise together arm in arm. What if we imagine a world past? Color, gender, race, origin, age? What if I know? Here's the thing For those of you listening on the podcast. I am a woman of color, so I just need people to know that, in case you don't know. And Andrea, you are not, you are a. You are. What would you? Well, I mean? But the irony is, if people knew what our ethnicities were, they would realize that we are so much more alike than we are. Not Right, but people confuse skin color with ethnicity.
Andrea Nunez:You look at me and you look at carmen. You're like that carmen is a black woman, andrea is a white woman.
Carmen Lezeth:That's right so your feelings. I'm just going to throw this your way because I think everyone can tell how I feel about it. Would it be easier if I started with a question? I'm so sorry. Yeah, yeah, start with a question.
Carmen Lezeth:Okay so here's my first thought. My first question when I sent you the email was basically this like why are white people so triggered by lifting up people who are in disenfranchised groups? Right, and let me just caveat with this. One of the things I responded to this woman was you know what, when somebody is disabled, when somebody has an issue where they are in a wheelchair or they are in a circumstance that is something that disenfranchises them from my privilege, or even as a woman of color, because I have light skin privilege, my privilege, or even as a woman of color, because I have light skin privilege, I understand my privilege. Even in that part of it. There is a privilege to having light skin and blah, blah, blah. I never, ever get triggered. If anything, I listen and I put a handout and say how can I help? So my question to you is not just in business, but as a white woman, but you can answer both. Why are white people so triggered by this statement?
Andrea Nunez:of uplifting black women or black people.
Carmen Lezeth:Well, and I know, you're speaking on behalf of all white people.
Andrea Nunez:I speak on behalf of all black people. So let me tell you all about what the white people think. Yeah, I was going to caveat. It was saying I do not speak for all white people, but here's what I believe. I believe that several things. First is that there is a sense that there's uh, you know, there's a pie right, and if I give up my piece, it's very, it's like a, it's like a kindergartner mentality almost. It's very immature and juvenile. I don't want to give up even a sliver of my pie because that's there's only so much to go around, and on some circles that's called like scarcity mindset or lack mentality, and I think that's been very much ingrained in people. If I give you something, that means less for me as opposed to understanding that if there's more equity, more inclusiveness, more diversity, there's more for everyone, and the pie is going to taste so much better.
Andrea Nunez:I was just going to say I was just about to bring it back to food.
Andrea Nunez:Okay, that is one of your loves, so everyone knows, one of my great loves is why I can never move away from a big city. It just really just think about the diversity of food options that you have. Right, I can have Thai, I can have Indian, I can have Cambodian, I can have Korean. You know all of these things. My life, I believe, is enriched by that, not just because I love good food, but because it teaches me something about these people. You know, every time I have something like that and what they care about and it, I think, for me that lifts everybody and it's and I don't mean to be like facetious about it and be like, oh, it's just about having tacos or whatever.
Carmen Lezeth:Be inclusive. We want tacos.
Andrea Nunez:It's definitely more than that and I don't mean to underplay it, but I do believe that there's just there's something that people miss about, about embracing diversity, and sometimes don't even realize that they already have in many ways, but they they cut themselves off. And that, you know, which brings me to another point which I'm assuming we will get to, is that these are systemic problems. These are systemic problems that are ingrained in our culture and the way that we live, the way that we operate, definitely in business, definitely in education, and it filters through to the way that we interact with each other on a daily basis, filters through, you know, to the way that we interact with each other on a daily basis.
Carmen Lezeth:How do you hire someone of color, because this question comes up in that post a lot too right, this idea that you shouldn't be hiring someone based on the color of their skin, but you should be hiring the best person for the job. How do you tackle that and answer that question or explain?
Andrea Nunez:it to someone. When people bring that up and I've heard that for almost decades now in my business life you and me both, of course we should all hire and promote talent, like I'm not going to bring someone in who doesn't know what the F they're doing. But the question is, where are you looking for that talent? How are you defining talent? What exactly does that mean? Who are you systematically excluding with some of the stated qualifications and the unstated? Not a culture fit dismissiveness, right, you have to look at. All right, what's my pool of candidates?
Carmen Lezeth:Can I also interject here, because it just reminded me of something that you said, president Barack Obama, during a speaking event. I believe it was when Reverend Pinckney was killed the church shooting that happened. Remember, when he was doing his eulogy. He did that really famous line where he said and I'm misquoting it, but it's the same flavor it's like when you look at a resume, you won't just look at the name Johnny, you'll also look at the name Jamal.
Carmen Lezeth:We don't even realize our own personal racist ways that we see the name Jamal. We don't even realize our own personal racist ways that we see the name Jamal or whatever, laquisha or whatever you want to call it. You look at certain names and you dismiss them, whether they're Asian names, latino names or whatever, because it is systemic. It doesn't mean that you're walking around saying the N word, it's that you don't even realize in your head you have fit into what society has decided is not worthy of a job in tech, because you think somebody with a certain kind of name couldn't possibly have the education or the wherewithal or the know-how to do that tech job. Yeah, absolutely.
Carmen Lezeth:I mean, I worked at a company and I you know to this day they're doing really well. I was a partner there. It was a great company when I was there and I remember having the conversation that they needed to find more Asian guys to hire because there weren't any other people qualified. And I remember myself being like because I didn't know anything about the design world and motion graphics at the time I was like, okay, we all would be there for that. Or okay, you want me to find people where? And here's the thing, it is ingrained in us, it is system and I wish white people would get that. I'm not saying that you as a white person, as a white executive, as a white owner of a company, are intentionally although some of you are, but some of you are not intentionally being racist. They are things that are ingrained in us and so I just wanted to throw that out there because I am really tired of people being so triggered by uplifting other people.
Andrea Nunez:Well, and I was reading something about this the other day and I wish I could remember where, and I'm sure it's been written about in a lot of different ways. But you know, when you're the standard, the norm, and your people are waking you up to the oh it was. It was about somebody had posted something about the new Disney movie and about how he didn't see himself in it and it was boring or something like that.
Carmen Lezeth:Which one?
Andrea Nunez:do you know Red Panda, I think.
Carmen Lezeth:Oh, I don't know that one.
Andrea Nunez:Yeah, it's not even out yet. I keep seeing the commercials and I have no idea what it's about. But anyway, this guy it's a passing thing I saw on social media, so I'm probably butchering it, but I do remember a couple of his lines were like I don't see myself in it, so it was a waste of my time, it's something along those lines. I'm paraphrasing, but the I don't see myself, and it was something that he said and it was like welcome to the experience of every person of color you have ever come into contact with. That's right. You know what I mean and it's, it is, it's triggering, and he definitely got schooled, maybe got schooled. I don't know if he learned anything, but you know he got told and that is a very difficult thing for people to overcome, to stand back and be like I mean just it's the general skill of being able to say, oh, I have something to learn here is something that a lot of people have not learned.
Carmen Lezeth:I have something to learn here is something that a lot of people have not learned yeah, not being defensive about every single thing, like everything isn't about you and everything isn't in. I can't say the word, so I don't know why I'm trying to use it, but this woman that I reacted with and we were going on and on and she just kept, she could not stop being defensive, and it made me even kinder, right, it made me even nicer. I kept trying to be even more, and there were other people chiming in trying to tell her like what are you doing? Like you're now becoming very racist and everything you're saying because you're so triggered, and I think that's why she deleted the post. I'm not the post, that the comment how do you as and I've always said this to you and this is bad on my part, but I always say you're one of the good ones, right, and what I mean by that.
Carmen Lezeth:Yeah, I'm letting it all out there on my podcast Hashtag good ones. What I mean by that is people. You know we say the allies, we say people who are allies, but what I mean by that is you're not triggered by my brilliance, right? If anything, you have always lifted me up as a woman of color. I have never felt that you were trying to step on me or felt intimidated or felt like I was taking more from you, and I've seen that with you on in so many other circumstances. Just in the way we work with people. I've seen you talk to white bosses that we've both had and kind of school them in a nice way about their own racism, and they don't even know you're schooling them. So how do you become this person or how have you or how has it happened? Is there something you can bottle and we can sell to other white people to help walk them through this time period?
Andrea Nunez:I don't know. Yeah, I don't. I don't know how to answer. No, I mean, I think the answer is no, I mean it's just. You know the secret of my success.
Carmen Lezeth:Look, and here's why because I yell at people of color all the time because there's a camp that starts right, where we're trying to be understanding, and there's another camp where we're done. We are so tired of the racism, especially when we're talking about things that are happening, like George Floyd or you know have happened to may he rest in peace, but just you understand what I'm saying Like we've had it right. And then there's people like myself, who are, like I am trying to be as understanding to white people, Cause I think white people are having a struggle right now. They're having a major issue.
Andrea Nunez:It is an existential struggle right now. They're having a major issue. It is an existential struggle right now, literally. And that's you see, when there's an existential struggle, you see people who are willing to learn, willing to change. You see people who are waiting it out to see how it all plays out and people who are freaking the fuck out, sorry what is?
Carmen Lezeth:can you explain for people like me what existential means?
Andrea Nunez:Meaning people think that they're, they are in a life and death struggle, right? I believe that the power structure, structures, uh, you know, and that's it's a weird way to say it, but the power, you know people see that the power structures are changing right. The country is becoming much more diverse and there's it's not, it's a wave, it's that you're not going to stop, right, the train has left the station, it's happening, and even the conversation that we're having. People wouldn't have had this 20 years ago.
Carmen Lezeth:People are still not having this conversation. I'm going to get a lot of feedback.
Andrea Nunez:Yeah, there's there's, you know the openness of it, like you can see gay people on TV. You know what I mean.
Andrea Nunez:Like that kind of stuff where it's just well and that doesn't have to do necessarily with white people, although it does, but I mean mean, that's a whole other issue we'll talk about you know, those kinds of things I think make uh a a section of people feel like you know my way of life, my culture, you know the way my way of being in the world is being threatened and that's what I mean by existential threat, like they feel like it's they're in a fight or flight kind of moment, I think you know it's so interesting because, as, as a woman of color and yes, I'm only speaking for myself, I cannot speak on behalf of all people of color, I you know, just to clarify in case there's any confusion.
Carmen Lezeth:I think what's really interesting is I see the pain that white people are going through and I have to tell you black, black folk get mad at me when I say that, but I see it. I see this strange, weird feeling like everything is being taken away from me and it's even worse. It's being taken away from me from people who are less than or don't deserve it somehow. Right, there's just like all this, like layering of it, and for me it feels like I wish I could change that thought process in saying no one is taking anything away from you. We're asking you to come to the table, we're asking you to sit at the table where we should have been all along, you know, and together. But you can't see, you can't do that We've talked about.
Andrea Nunez:You know you're, you're a kinder, nicer person than I am. Um, this is actually true, it is verified. Um, and I don't have that understanding or sympathy Right Right To me. Like I said, I feel like it's juvenile, it's immature, it's, uh, ignorant.
Andrea Nunez:I could go on and on and on all the things that are wrong with that way of thinking, on and on all the things that are wrong with that way of thinking, and you know one, one of my biggest pet peeves is what I call willful ignorance, like you are choosing to be at this point. You are choosing to be ignorant on this topic, right. And one of the most frustrating things, I think, for a lot of people is that, you know, it would help everybody Most, a lot of the people who are most aggrieved by what they see as this diversification of the country would actually benefit in very concrete ways If they would, as you say, come to the table in good faith and be like let's work together, we're in this together, let's. So I was going to be totally Pollyanna let's work together to make the world a better place. But I mean, that's what it's about, right, Make everyone's lives better.
Carmen Lezeth:Do you think, though, that there's also cause? I see this with the conflict happening right now with Ukraine, and I hate to do that, but and I've been seeing this for a long time People in the United States, we really believe we're so much better than other countries. That's how I grew up, believing, and then realizing oh my God, I'm not Right, we're not. Is there something?
Carmen Lezeth:to that Right, we're so, not You're the baddies, and I love my country. But I'm just saying, is there something to it with that as well? I feel like some white people I know are really triggered by the idea that black people are smart and brilliant and good and, oh my God, are they on the same level? You know what I mean? Mean, or are some even better, like I had someone make a comment the other day like I can't believe he's a CEO of that company, and I was like what? Why he's a Harvard grad. You know, I went down the list of his resume and they, well, I mean, it's just weird, right.
Andrea Nunez:Right, yeah, I mean and I think that goes to what I refer to as what many people see as their culture, their culture of what this country is and what it means all of these kinds of you know like propaganda really about what America is, yeah, lies about what it is. Was it ever that for black people, for Latinos? I don't think so. Yeah, there's a pathway to the American dream, maybe. But you talk a lot of these people who, like hearken back to things were so great back in the 50s and we were so prosperous after the war and you know you could buy a house on a, you know, working class salary. Let's talk to our farm worker friends and talk and tell me how great it was back in the 50s. Let's talk to people who had to drink at separate drinking fountains because of the color of their skin. It wasn't freaking great. Sorry, I keep wanting to cuss.
Carmen Lezeth:Yeah, why are you swearing so much on my podcast?
Carmen Lezeth:No, it's okay, here's the other thing too, the reason why I don't like period pieces so much and people don't get this. I and I don't really know a lot of people of color who are like, oh my God, I love Jane Austen movies. Like I never am excited about period pieces Cause I already know where I would be in that period piece. I do not relate. You know what I mean, I do, you know it's. It's like this weird joke. At least I'd be in the house, is what they would say. Right, I know it's horrible, so it's. Yeah, I just wish it was easier for people not to be so angry about the world. You know, for me it's not that it's changing for the good, it's changing and it's about time.
Andrea Nunez:Like it's like taking it back to even that post right, like it's a social media post, right, it's not a world changing thing, but it is important to say these things loud and proud in order to normalize them. I think you even mentioned she said until it's not necessary, or she does. And are people going to have a reaction? Yes, they are. And are people going to have a reaction? Yes, they are. But people had a reaction to women getting the right to vote a hundred years ago. People died and even then white women were the ones who really got the right to vote. It wasn't until many years later, until people of color. But it was a long, arduous fight, and and so is this and it will continue, and we're still paying.
Andrea Nunez:We're still trying to deal with that, which is, yeah, there's still a subset of people who think that the women shouldn't have the right to vote, and there's always probably going to be a subset of people who feel like, because your skin happens to be more melanated than mine, I'm better than you. Like, people are going to. There's going to be people who believe that and that's not going to change.
Carmen Lezeth:I have these new clients who I absolutely love them, but the other day somebody this has nothing to do with what we're talking about, it's just funny Somebody sent me an email and they were like why T? Blah, blah, blah, why T? Whatever? And I'm like why are these people Like? Why are they?
Andrea Nunez:saying white every five, they meant youtube.
Carmen Lezeth:That is very culturally specific you have to keep reading this email over and over again, because I was like but yeah, it's like the world is just changing. I, I and I was reading into something. Yeah, because I think, culturally, people of color are using y? Yt more often to talk about white people. But this was somebody referring to YouTube in an abbreviated form. I was freaking out, but look, I think we should. I mean, do you have anything else you wanted to add?
Andrea Nunez:I was going to wrap up, but yeah, no, just like I said just going off of that post, right, it's a social media post and there's all of this is a lot more complex than that can convey, but I think we have to continue to wake people up to the inequities and trigger them, be willing to trigger them.
Carmen Lezeth:Yeah, yeah, and I think white people need to stop talking so much and just listen. Like, if you look at that post, black people, people of color and some white people there were definitely some white people who were just celebrating it, were happy about it, were excited about it. Every white person, mostly white women, because, you know, I went in and looked at it Angry we're the same. I don't see color. I'm angry, we're the same, I don't see color. Oh, my good Lord, like it just was devastating. And so I hope, I hope, people got something out of this, at least have a conversation about it. But we'll have to touch on this subject again in our next episode, so hopefully you'll come back next week.
Andrea Nunez:I will try not to cuss as much.
Carmen Lezeth:No, you can cuss, it's all right. It's explicit on my things. All right, that's it for now. We'll be back next week. So thanks, adios, thanks for stopping by. All about the joy. Be better and stay beautiful folks, have a sweet day.