From Journalism to Justice: Nicole Knox on Criminal Defense and Constitutional Rights

In this Private Lounge conversation, Carmen sits down with Dallas criminal defense attorney Nicole Knox, known for her federal trial work, rare full acquittals, and more than 60 not‑guilty verdicts. Nicole talks about why the 14th Amendment matters so deeply to her, how due process actually works, and why every person — regardless of the accusation — deserves a real defense.

Nicole shares how she went from broadcast journalism to law school, the early insecurities she had to push through, and the unexpected mentorship that shaped her career: working under Steven Jones, the attorney who defended Timothy McVeigh in the Oklahoma City bombing trial. She also opens up about the realities of practicing law, the gap between legal education and courtroom work, and what she learned from being a victim, a juror, and a litigator.

This episode offers a grounded look at criminal defense, constitutional rights, and the human side of practicing law — with candid moments about confidence, communication, and what it takes to stand up for people inside a system that doesn’t always treat them equally.

Topics include:
• The 14th Amendment, due process, and why it’s the “glue” of the Constitution
• How journalism shaped Nicole’s courtroom presence
• The mentorship of Steven Jones and lessons from high‑stakes federal trials
• What people misunderstand about criminal defense
• Why every client has a defense — and how to find it
• The difference between learning law and practicing law
• Gender, confidence, and building leadership for women attorneys

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Music By Geovane Bruno, Moments, 3481
Editing by Team A-J
Host, Carmen Lezeth


DISCLAIMER:  As always, please do your own research and understand that the opinions in this podcast and livestream are meant for entertainment purposes only. States and other areas may have different rules and regulations governing certain aspects discussed in this podcast.  Nothing in our podcast or livestream is meant to be medical or legal advice. Please use common sense, and when in doubt, ask a professional for advice, assistance, help and guidance. 

Transcript

[00:00:00] Carmen: Hi everyone. Welcome to all about the joy in the house is Nicole Knox. and you, I'm going to first say your little bio that I looked into, so I'm gonna give you your props.

[00:00:12] Okay. Um.

[00:00:14] Nicole: a little.

[00:00:15] Carmen: Yeah, just let me do my thing. Okay, girl, please. Okay. Today we are joined by Nicole Knox, one of Dallas's most respected criminal defense attorneys. I can't believe that I finally have an attorney I can talk to. I'll explain that later. Um. You have earned more than 60 not guilty verdicts and is considered one of the most sought after criminal lawyers in Dallas.

[00:00:39] You have strong federal practice, especially in healthcare fraud defense. Your federal work includes rare total acquittals and dismissals in complex healthcare fraud cases, something very few attorneys achieve. Am I right about that? 'cause I think that's true,

[00:00:55] Nicole: Correct.

[00:00:56] Carmen: Um,

[00:00:57] Nicole: is.

[00:00:57] Carmen: you. Yeah, you've been recognized repeatedly for excellence with numerous awards.

[00:01:02] Best Lawyer, criminal Defense, D Magazine, multiple years. top 100 trial lawyers, national Trial Lawyers Association, Texas Super Lawyers, up and coming top 50 women lawyers. You're a true trial lawyer. Is what I'm getting. Um, 

[00:01:20] you've appeared on multiple news shows like Fox Four and others to explain legal issues to the public, including gun right cases and high profile local matters. and you've run your own firm in Dallas for 14 years. It's the law office of Nicole Knox. Welcome to all about the joy, the private lounge. So did, did I get all of that right or did I mess it

[00:01:45] Nicole: All. Things that anyone can look up and confirm.

[00:01:50] Carmen: Yeah, I can I say I was grateful when you sent me the email because, um, so I said I, I know a lot of lawyers. I, I would never talk to any of them on the show.

[00:02:03] Nicole: I don't blame you for that.

[00:02:06] Carmen: No, no, no. Wait, wait, wait. Let me qualify that 'cause I know a couple of them watch the show. But, um, here's why. Because they work for my clients, right? So I would never have them on the show. Um, and then I have a couple friends who are actual lawyers and it feels like, because we are friends, it feels like a weird thing for them to come on the show.

[00:02:24] So, but I love that you reached out. Thank you so much. And I hope we can become friends now. I'm excited.

[00:02:32] Nicole: I so wanna be friends with you. I love your energy and I mean, you already said. Great things about me, so that's what I love the most.

[00:02:42] Carmen: I Flattery will get you everywhere, isn't it? Right? Um, so you, you had seen, uh. So all about the Joy is a network of four different shows, and the show that you happen to catch was the one with me and Andrea, which is Culture and Consequence, which is usually the show where we're screaming and yelling about politics.

[00:03:00] Um, the private lounge is where we have these intimate conversations. But can I ask you, and you may not remember, I don't know, I know you're very busy. Why, why you reached out because of that conversation about the 14th Amendment?

[00:03:15] Nicole: I am very passionate about the 14th Amendment. I believe that it is the glue to our constitution. It when you combine the procedural and this substantive due process rights.

[00:03:29] Carmen: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:30] Nicole: everything and if we don't follow due process, then our system is really worth nothing.

[00:03:38] Carmen: Yeah. For some of our viewers out there who may not know what due process really means, could you maybe give us an example of what that means?

[00:03:47] Nicole: Sure. It's actually pretty simple and I really don't understand how judges, lawyers, anyone in the bus of the law. Don't understand it, politicians, it's so procedural due process is exactly how it sounds. It's give someone notice of a procedure that they're supposed to follow.

[00:04:13] Carmen: It really is that simple.

[00:04:16] Nicole: Yeah.

[00:04:16] Really that simple. Like follow a procedure that is already in place and tell somebody about it before you violate their rights. 

[00:04:27] Substantive due process ties the 14th amendment of the right to due process with another substantive right, or or fundamental right. Basically anything in the constitution. And so if you weren't. Basic. The way I think of it is you have to know that what you're doing is wrong. You have to be told that this is wrong what you're doing, or be expected to know that it's wrong in order to do something wrong. In other words, if someone wants, if the government wants to, claimant First Amendment violation, that's just the first amendment that popped in my head, probably case number one.

[00:05:09] Carmen: Right, because it's number one free speech, right? We're talking about free speech.

[00:05:14] Nicole: Free speech right to association it. The penumbra of associations and rights that are included in the First Amendment are insane, meaning that it has the most rights associated with it, um, other than due process. So maybe I should pick an easier one. Like let's say the sixth Amendment, which includes the right to confrontation, the right to a lawyer, and the right.

[00:05:42] To, um, a jury trial in criminal court, but also in family court. And so when those rights are violated under the sixth Amendment, you have also a substantive due process claim. It basically is just saying, you violated my constitutional rights, that substantive due process.

[00:06:03] Carmen: Right.

[00:06:05] Nicole: But if you dunno if there's some, um, there are ways in which the government sometimes tries to create laws that don't exist through case law, through cases,

[00:06:19] Carmen: okay. Right. They're creating new ones.

[00:06:23] Nicole: right? And so if you're not on notice that this is a law that is on the books or in the constitution. Then you are charged with violating that law, then that would be a violation of substantive due process.

[00:06:40] Carmen: Right, but isn't that, isn't that the whole reason why the judge is there to make sure we don't go through that?

[00:06:46] Nicole: Yes.

[00:06:47] Carmen: Sounds so simple. Okay, we're getting in the weeds before we get to know you. So let's back it up a little bit. 'cause I'm sitting here like, okay, I wanna ask her what this means. That means, and I'm like, you know what we, we need to talk about, let's start from the beginning.

[00:07:00] Okay. What originally drew you to become a lawyer? And specifically criminal defenses wouldn't be my first choice as a lawyer, but you know, I am who I am. So tell us

[00:07:13] Nicole: Yeah.

[00:07:13] Carmen: a little bit.

[00:07:16] Nicole: I went to law school because I didn't know what else to do with my life and it was the only way to get a doctorate degree without having to take more undergraduate classes. I was a broadcast journalism major in college and I loved it, and ironically, it's kind of what set me apart from my peers in law school was my lack of fear of public speaking.

[00:07:42] Because I worked at the news station in college and did all the things. I mean, I remember the days of like feeding the pages. You had to work your way up to anchor woman, right? I was the weather girl for two years, but before I could be the weather girl, I had to be the cameraman. And before that, I had to be the teleprompter girl.

[00:08:00] And I remember the days of the, like I had to feed pages on like this. I don't know what you even call it, like a rotating belt.

[00:08:11] Carmen: Oh, okay. I think I

[00:08:13] Nicole: Just so it could be on the screen, and I would get very frustrated when it stopped working. The technology was not great. My point is that it, the public speaking part, the communication part helped me tremendously and also the human part, the connection to other human beings and caring about other human beings.

[00:08:40] Because that's, I had to do a story or two a week and I went to school in, the univers at the University of Mississippi where the population is 10 thou was 10,000 ish strong.

[00:08:57] Carmen: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:57] Nicole: So we had to kind of make up stories and go talk to people and figure out what the latest gossip was.

[00:09:05] Carmen: So this is as a journalist, right? This is the journalism part,

[00:09:10] Nicole: Yes, this is the journalism part, but what it taught me is how to talk to people and how to talk to the masses as well.

[00:09:16] I then, when I went to law school, I, told my parents that I would not graduate and that I would never take the bar exam

[00:09:27] Carmen: Why?

[00:09:28] Nicole: because I didn't believe in myself.

[00:09:31] Carmen: Oh

[00:09:32] Nicole: But turns out I graduated pretty high in my class and passed the bar exam in the third hardest state, uh, on my first try.

[00:09:43] Carmen: Wow. Okay.

[00:09:45] Nicole: And I worked though my third, I did a different internship each year of law school to see if this was a profession that I could even tolerate. 

[00:09:57] I did the corporate law thing.

[00:09:59] Then that took me to the family law thing. Then I realized family law was a disaster and,

[00:10:06] Carmen: Wait, wait, wait, wait. Why? Why? Just little, like a, a sentence or two.

[00:10:10] Nicole: I remember my like aha moment of I can't do this. I thought, I, I thought, oh, that's cute. Like I can go help families and make them feel better.

[00:10:21] Carmen: That's what I

[00:10:22] Nicole: That seems like it. What it should be for. But I remember the aha moment of, oh, I can't do this, of when I was drafting a petition for the lawyers to approve, of course, but over cable course is what we were fighting over at that point.

[00:10:43] Carmen: I, I,

[00:10:44] Nicole: was like, yeah, no, no, I just can't. I just can't do this.

[00:10:47] Carmen: Okay. I, okay. We can move on. All right, so you knew family.

[00:10:51] Nicole: But what it, yes, but what it did teach me is that I did value the benefit of representing a human being instead of a corporation or money. And I just didn't. I can advocate for a wrong that gets you damages because you're entitled to them, but once you reach a certain dollar amount. Like I, I just didn't have the passion to advocate for more money.

[00:11:15] What I do have the passion for is to advocate for rights that we're all supposed to be entitled to and for equality in those rights and for justice in those rights.

[00:11:27] Carmen: Right.

[00:11:28] Nicole: the, and I thought, I like to hear myself talk and I like people.

[00:11:36] Carmen: People don't admit that. Like most people don't admit that. That's part of why you communicate so well is 'cause you like to hear the way in which you can logically have a conversation with someone. So I hear you. We're on the same page. Go ahead, I'm sorry. 

[00:11:51] Don't 

[00:11:51] Nicole: there's something so special about human interaction and what, what you gain e, even if you lose. Objectively, objectively gaining the perspective of another human voice and a face and putting eyeballs on somebody is a win in my book every time that I can think of it. And so I thought, well, criminal defense is criminal law.

[00:12:20] Carmen: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:21] Nicole: Prosecutorial or defense is the best way to be in a courtroom and be in front of people and set myself apart. I was really fortunate that, so I volunteered at the DA's office my third semester of law school or my last semester of law school. the DA's office wanted to hire me that they told me that, um, we were in a recession that like oh 8, 0 9 recession.

[00:12:45] Carmen: Yeah. Yeah, right. That was a

[00:12:47] Nicole: And they told me that the county commissioner's office had frozen their budget and they didn't know when they could hire, like pay me. They wanted to hire me but not pay me. And I said, well, there's this person named Sally May who likes to call me.

[00:13:03] Carmen: Yeah. Student loans. Hello. Right.

[00:13:07] Nicole: I was like, that's just not in my cards. Fortunately, my boss from the DA's office from that internship. a famous criminal defense attorney as a father, and he was in town for a big, huge federal trial and he hired me on the spot. I said, are you kidding me? I will take out his trash if you will 

[00:13:28] Carmen: Wow. Wow. Okay.

[00:13:31] Nicole: So that's how I got into criminal defense. Um, we were like this traveling trial show for over three years of this naive energy from me. Wanting to like grandstand and his wisdom where he could grandstand in like one sentence and it would take me four days.

[00:13:53] Carmen: Right, but you learned a lot.

[00:13:56] Nicole: oh, and he threw me into the trenches.

[00:13:59] He put me through a test every single day. Half the time I didn't even know it was being tested, but the one thing, the one time, it pissed me off, but it was the best thing that he ever did for me was I moved to Tulsa, Oklahoma. For six months to represent a police officer in federal court on about 60 ish counts of corruption, my job was to work up the case.

[00:14:25] I thought I was just gonna be like the quiet mouse in the back of the courtroom during trial and about a day or two before trial, he tasked me with cross-examining the biggest drug dealer in Oklahoma.

[00:14:38] Carmen: Oh wow.

[00:14:40] Nicole: I'll not, I've never even done a cross examination. What are you

[00:14:44] Carmen: Wait, you said wait, wait. You said you will not.

[00:14:47] Nicole: Uhhuh? And he said, you'll, or you're not gonna get paid and you're gonna go home.

[00:14:53] Carmen: Okay.

[00:14:54] Nicole: home, it was a two day cross examination, like that's how long and lengthy and in depth this case was. And I went home and cried.

[00:15:03] Carmen: Um,

[00:15:04] Nicole: I didn't tell him that until after the trial. Or at least after the cross-examination. Um, but you know, then I put my big girl panties on and the next day it went flawlessly and nobody believed a word.

[00:15:15] She said,

[00:15:17] Carmen: so, okay, wait, so I know you did a good job. You did a good job. Did you guys win the case?

[00:15:25] Nicole: yes, we did. We won all, but I think two counts. And I think he went to. Prison for something less than a year because the counts that we didn't when were due to another man not listening to me,

[00:15:42] Carmen: right,

[00:15:42] Nicole: but,

[00:15:43] Carmen: right.

[00:15:44] Nicole: that's beside the point. the judge dismissed a couple of counts after the trial based on a motion to dismiss for

[00:15:53] legal reasons. 

[00:15:55] Carmen: Do you, ever, I mean, this is probably hard to ask, but I'm sure your friends or family or whatever ask you this question, so I'll just ask, is it hard for you to defend someone when you know they've done something wrong?

[00:16:09] Nicole: That is the hallmark question.

[00:16:11] Carmen: I know, but I'm dying to know. 'cause I'm thinking. 'cause you already know. Okay Nicole. We don't know each other, but I feel like we know each other. I have issues with cops. So when you just said, you just said, and we defended this cop, whatever. I'm like, what he do wrong? What he do wrong, but

[00:16:26] Nicole: have to remember, this was back in the day when people still liked police officers mostly,

[00:16:33] Carmen: Girl, you talking to a black Latina woman? There has never been a day. No. No, no. Okay. But look it to, alright, to be real. To be real. I have respect for cops. I do. I'm, I'm, I'm messing around right now, but there were so many counts against him in this process. In my head. I wonder just as a human being. Is it hard for you as a lawyer to be able to say, you know what, everyone deserves a defense, whatever, but I think he did do A, B, C, and D.

[00:17:02] I mean, I don't know. Does that happen?

[00:17:04] Nicole: I have never, ever felt that way and.

[00:17:07] Carmen: Okay. Okay.

[00:17:09] Nicole: But I think it is in huge kudos to Steven Jones, who I worked for. Um, he defended McVay in the Oklahoma City bombing trial

[00:17:19] Carmen: Oh wow. Really? Wow.

[00:17:24] Is he the mentor? Is he the one?

[00:17:26] Is he the 

[00:17:26] Nicole: he's the one I worked

[00:17:28] Carmen: Oh, that is awesome.

[00:17:31] Nicole: I mean, he taught, I truly would not be who I am today without him. Um, but for probably the first.

[00:17:38] Month or so that I worked for him. He would come in from a hearing or something and slam down a file on my desk and say, Nicole, god dammit, you think way too much like a prosecutor. And it was moments like that that I would say, okay, why do you think that? And he said, well, I let your, my daughter get ahold of you first.

[00:18:00] I think that's the first problem, because she was a prosecutor.

[00:18:05] Carmen: Oh, oh, okay. Okay. I was like, I

[00:18:06] Nicole: He said, the second problem is you're just acting like a person instead of a lawyer. You need to look at the facts and the law, and you have to apply the facts to the law. 

[00:18:17] Carmen: Okay. 

[00:18:18] Nicole: was like, huh. You know, I mean, it took me a minute, but once, I mean, it didn't take that long.

[00:18:24] And I have to this day, he was fired from his first job for, um, accepting a flag burning case.

[00:18:34] Carmen: A what? A flag burning case. Wait a minute. The lawyer who represented Timothy McVay, what's his name again? Let's give him some props. What's his name? Steven Jones sounds like a very common name for such a prominent lawyer, right? It's such a common, yeah. Um.

[00:18:59] Nicole: I mean, he's, um, he's phenomenal. He still, we still talk and communicate all the time,

[00:19:04] Carmen: Well look it, I may, I may have my issues with Tim Timothy McVay, right? Because he hurt and killed so many people, blah, blah, blah, whatever. But I will fight to the death for everyone This. In this country to have legal representation and good legal representation. I mean, we want that, we want everyone to be defended correctly in the justice system.

[00:19:25] Part of the problem is when you're poor or not a high profile criminal or whatever, you don't get the best of the best, you know? So, yeah, I mean, I, I want people to be clear, I'm not, you know, advocating for what Timothy McVay did, but I am advocating that he had good legal representation.

[00:19:44] Nicole: Well, and that's what he instilled in me is that there is always a defense and the, there is a constitutional right to have a lawyer. When you're charged with a crime and the constitutional right to a jury trial, and it is therefore your job to not judge these people based on your moral or ethical personal principles.

[00:20:13] But it is your job to apply the facts to the law and it. Still to this day confuses me when somebody walks into my office and says, how come I've been to, how come you just came up with a defense to my case in two seconds when I've been to four other lawyers who are supposed to be really good lawyers and told me I had no defense?

[00:20:38] I said, well, that's just stupid because everyone has a defense. You just have to find it. You have to find that element to attack that, where the facts don't add up to the law. And when you approach it like that and you think of it, of my job is not to judge my client. My job is to police the police to make sure that they're doing their job, to make sure that the witnesses are telling the truth, to make sure that the government is telling the truth, and to make sure that the judge is doing the right thing.

[00:21:11] Carmen: Have you ever come to a situation where you have someone who comes in the room, you know that there's a defense for them, but you still decide not to take the case?

[00:21:23] Nicole: Never.

[00:21:24] Carmen: Never. Okay. Right. Okay.

[00:21:26] Nicole: Now with the qualification of, there have been times where I've declined cases based on fee structures. But I have never declined one and I'm, I'm not one to charge unreasonable fees or be unreasonable about that. But, there's a different system like court appointed lawyers and federal public defenders 

[00:21:51] Carmen: No, that's fair. That's absolutely fair. And I think that's, that's actually why I am so adamant that people need to have good defense lawyers no matter what the crime is. You did, no matter what you're being accused of, I should say. Right. The proper terminology to be accused of. Um, but I feel like because so many people who are poor get into these situations, whatever they may be, whatever they're being accused of.

[00:22:16] They don't get the best of the best. They don't get a Nicole Knox, you know what I mean? They don't get you.

[00:22:23] Nicole: Did do that at one point,

[00:22:25] Carmen: No. And Nicole Knox doesn't need to do that anymore. I'm just saying like at some point we look it, I what? Look it, I'm not trying to make you become some pro bono lawyer all of a sudden. I'm just saying.

[00:22:39] I think that's part of what people don't understand is, I've always said this over and over again. This is where all my liberal friends get so upset. 

[00:22:47] But like, I have no problem with capital punishment. What I have a problem with is the justice system, right? Like how many people we have on death row because of mistakes or bad lawyers or, I, I don't wanna say bad lawyers 'cause you're in the 

[00:23:01] Nicole: No, you 

[00:23:02] can say that.

[00:23:03] Carmen: You know what I'm saying? Like, because if we had really good lawyers for everyone, if there was a a, a way in which you could equalize that and some, you know, poor person who gets accused of something that they never test the DNA correctly or whatever it is. Whatever it is, you know what I mean? Um, then we'd have less people on death row.

[00:23:23] We'd have less people in these situations. But anyways, that's just me. I'm sorry, I got a 

[00:23:29] Nicole: No. 

[00:23:30] Carmen: emotional.

[00:23:32] Nicole: I think you bring up some really good points and I didn't appreciate it enough and, well, first of all, I did appreciate it on some degree because I was the president of the Dallasman lawyers about 10 years ago. and I realized that although I had a great upbringing and becoming. Successful lawyer that not all women were afforded that opportunity. And I created a leadership class for women lawyers who wanted to PR practice in Dallas. And it's still standing to this day, we only accept like 12 at a time to make sure we can really provide a service that they've become some of the best lawyers. Because I realized, 

[00:24:20] Carmen: I 

[00:24:20] Nicole: thank you. I'm so proud of it. I really am, because I realized that the power of when somebody believes in you 

[00:24:30] Carmen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:24:31] Nicole: what you can do with the knowledge and the skill that is already being gifted to you and that you possess, but somebody sometimes has to bring it out and make, especially as women, we're so insecure sometimes and don't realize our worth.

[00:24:50] And I'm not gonna lie, the first about two years of practicing, I came home every day and cried to my best friend who I graduated law school with. And I was like, this is so hard.

[00:25:03] Carmen: Oh, no.

[00:25:05] Nicole: But because it is, it's such, they don't teach you in law school how to practice law. So you have to get out there and you have to practice.

[00:25:12] Carmen: Oh wow.

[00:25:14] Nicole: But I

[00:25:14] Carmen: that a little bit more though. Can you explain that a little bit more?

[00:25:18] You go to 

[00:25:18] law 

[00:25:19] Nicole: in law 

[00:25:19] Carmen: teach you how to do law.

[00:25:22] Nicole: No, they teach you how to read the law. That's about it.

[00:25:28] Carmen: That explains a

[00:25:29] Nicole: is a, it's like a foreign language, so it kind of takes, but there's no, I mean, I took trial advocacy, but that was an elective for me. You have to take evidence. You have to take procedure. Like civil procedure and criminal law.

[00:25:49] You know, my lowest grade in law school was criminal law.

[00:25:54] Carmen: and that's what you practice Now, it's so funny, um,

[00:25:59] Nicole: But that just goes to show you that they, they just, it's not,

[00:26:04] Carmen: Right,

[00:26:05] Nicole: it's more about an international, or universal or statewide understanding of how the law works instead of how to walk into a courtroom. 

[00:26:16] Carmen: right. 

[00:26:17] Nicole: execute what you know.

[00:26:19] Carmen: It's interesting because all of your journalism instincts, your ability to speak or whatever, you were great at that. And then when you got your law degree, it seems like then you got a little shy about it or like, was it because it was the law part on top of now it seems seamless right now you're on point.

[00:26:38] You got it now.

[00:26:41] Nicole: Thank you for saying that. I appreciate that. Um, I literally woke up in my last semester of law school one day and I was like. Oh shit. I'm gonna graduate and not at the bottom of my class.

[00:26:54] Carmen: Yeah, yeah,

[00:26:54] Nicole: What am I gonna do now? I think I might have to take the bar exam. Oh, that sounds really hard. Turns out hard. Things are hard.

[00:27:03] Carmen: yeah.

[00:27:04] Nicole: And

[00:27:05] Carmen: it.

[00:27:06] Nicole: yeah, I got out on the first try. Um, I dedicated three months to studying for it. That's all I did, because I knew that if I was gonna do it, I couldn't afford to work. And do that. And the people that I knew who had failed it, that was the number one problem, is that they were trying to put attention in too many different places.

[00:27:28] And that as much as it paying me to take out another loan, like a bar study loan, that that would be cheaper than failing it.

[00:27:37] Carmen: Yeah. Wow. That's amazing. See, I, I don't think we all appreciate, I mean, I do, I, because I work with so many, lawyers, Because of my clients or whatever, right? 

[00:27:48] I try to appreciate all the work that goes into becoming a lawyer. Like you see a doctor, to me, it's kind of that same thing. You invest all of this time or whatever and all this experience and that makes you great at what you do or not. I don't know. 'cause some, some lawyers are crazy, I don't know.

[00:28:06] But, um, I think as the regular public, we don't. Understand how important it's to have a really good lawyer. We're like, who's a lawyer we can afford? It's always that conversation, you know, it's never about trying to get the best lawyer because you can't afford the best usually.

[00:28:24] Nicole: I think there are creative ways to make that happen. Would I always encourage anyone who consults with me? no matter if it was a referral source, which is my usual stream of business, just word of mouth.

[00:28:38] But what I always encourage them to do is go home, think about it. Also, go interview two other attorneys, and here are the two things you need to ask them.

[00:28:48] You need to ask them if they've been depending on the case. Right? Have they been in a jury trial before? I guess three questions. Jury trial before. I don't really do misdemeanor cases anymore, but

[00:29:03] Carmen: Right.

[00:29:03] Nicole: have they had a felony trial before? And how many acquittals have they had?

[00:29:11] Carmen: Right,

[00:29:12] Nicole: And then you take my statistics and then you go weigh your options.

[00:29:17] And if you still wanna hire me, great. If not, I completely understand. Because at the end of the day, if there's not the trust and the communication, it's not gonna work. It's gonna drive both of us crazy, and it's going to create a divide that is going to ruin a case.

[00:29:36] Carmen: I have, I just want you to know I have like three pages of questions and I haven't ans I mean, I haven't asked one

[00:29:42] of them. 

[00:29:42] Nicole: you catch up on your questions because I wanted to tell you something else.

[00:29:46] I didn't realize how bad lawyers were until I became three things. I have been a witness because I have a stalker. So the victim of a stalking case two times over from a former client. But seeing, seeing it from that perspective is just, it's different than being a lawyer.

[00:30:09] And then I was the foreperson of a jury while being a lawyer. I don't know why they chose me, but they did. 

[00:30:16] Carmen: wow. 

[00:30:16] Nicole: And then of course. Practicing myself and I specifically sought out chances and opportunities to get jury trial experience. But my point, ultimate point is that I didn't realize actually how bad lawyers could be until seeing it from those two perspectives.

[00:30:35] But then being a family court litigant

[00:30:40] and is appalling and it convinced me that. Really what the family, there are a lot of things that the family court needs to create justice for everyone who's ever been a parent and who ever has to go through that system. But the easiest, quickest fix to me, I've been researching and studying this and talking to people about this, is that if you pick a trial lawyer.

[00:31:12] Somebody that in family court, they make it sound so scary to go to trial. 

[00:31:19] And if you can, there's a point at which something snapped for me as a trial lawyer where I no longer was faking my confidence and I was actually secure and felt like. Even if I have to bring in a like baskets and boxes of empty papers just to look prepared, then I might have to do that today because I'm not prepared. But

[00:31:44] Carmen: Oh my God,

[00:31:45] Nicole: it didn't matter because, and I've even been in a trial where I didn't have a piece of paper or a pen or my glasses,

[00:31:52] Carmen: right.

[00:31:53] Nicole: and it didn't phase me because once you. Have done it enough times and I don't know the number of times it takes and I don't know what that measuring stick is, but I know for me it snapped one day.

[00:32:11] And, but I had thrown myself into every situation I could possibly think of. I don't pick the easy cases, I pick the hard ones.

[00:32:19] Carmen: right.

[00:32:19] Nicole: Um, just so that, 'cause I'm always looking for an opportunity to learn and to challenge myself. But what, what I've learned from family court is that if we just had less timid lawyers who didn't, who could stand up to the judges and actually put them in their place, not in the sense of being rude or unprofessional, but on insisting on constitutional rights, I think that would change the game if, if we could get there.

[00:32:52] Carmen: Why do judges get it so wrong then, in your opinion? I mean, like why?

[00:32:56] Nicole: they can.

[00:32:57] Carmen: Because they can, and they're usually tenured or whatever their terminology is. Right? They're in there forever or something. Right?

[00:33:05] Nicole: Well, so it works different in different states. Federal judges. Yes. The only way they lose their job is to retire or be impeached by Congress

[00:33:14] Carmen: Right. But you do both. You do state and federal, right? You do.

[00:33:18] Nicole: Yes, I do. I do mostly federal and I prefer federal. Um, it's just more reliable. Even the hard judges, you, the number one thing about a judge that bothers me the most is any kind of unpredictable outcomes, because it's hard to advise your client what to do if they're all over the map all the time.

[00:33:41] Carmen: Are there judges that are all over the map? I, I have this weird idea of judges being like, you know, oh, you know, like, no, you're over it. She over the judges. Okay.

[00:33:54] Nicole: there are great judges. There really are just like, there's great lawyers.

[00:34:00] Carmen: Fair.

[00:34:00] Nicole: I, I found that even the difficult judges in federal court are still better because they are appointed by a United States president and. They don't want to be impeached. I mean, 

[00:34:19] Carmen: So there's that. Right, right.

[00:34:22] Nicole: whereas it sounds counterintuitive really, whereas in Texas, our judges are all elected, purely elected.

[00:34:30] There's no vetting process.

[00:34:33] Carmen: I think in California our judges are elected too. At least I know. I'm always electing, I'm always having to pick a judge and the reason why I know is 'cause I always have to do research. 'cause I don't know enough about judges, so it's always a hard one to, and then me and Andrea will have to, you do this, judge, let me know what you think.

[00:34:50] I'll do that judge. You know what I mean? We have to like tag team it on that. So we must do it here too,

[00:34:56] Nicole: I, I believe you're correct on that. Because I know there's only seven states left who operate that way. Um, but it's a horrible, it's a horrible way to do it because what happens is you go up to vote for the United States president, or you know, someone in Congress or somebody who you really care about and know about and is in the mainstream news, and then there's, you know, the judge of whatever district court on the ballot and you don't know the difference.

[00:35:25] So you just pick the name you like.

[00:35:27] Carmen: Right. I don't pick the name I like, I do, I do research, but I'm a little bit on the cray cray side. I know most people don't even research Congress people and they're voting for them. They'll just keep picking the same name they know over and over and over again. Which is a bad thing to do.

[00:35:41] Yeah. Um. 'cause I think there should be caps on how many times someone can run for Congress, but that's just me.

[00:35:47] Nicole: Often it's the person, if you don't know often, like psychology studies have said this, that it's often the first person, person listed and it's usually in alphabetical order.

[00:35:59] Carmen: Really people? No, I mean I know it's in alphabetical order, but you're saying most people will always pick the first name 'cause it's right there,

[00:36:07] Nicole: Unless it's a bizarre name, then they'll pick the most likable name.

[00:36:12] Carmen: So strange. I don't know. Okay. for people who feel this is a little bit off of what you do, but not it's still in line. And of course, anything you don't wanna answer or talk about, we don't have to talk about, but these are my

[00:36:24] Nicole: I talk all day long.

[00:36:25] Carmen: Okay. For people who feel overwhelmed by legal news, 

[00:36:31] What it's, what's one thing they can pay attention to that like that actually matters, right? So that they can kind of keep abreast of what's going on, but not be feeling overwhelmed. I don't know if you have any advice on that.

[00:36:43] Nicole: No, that's a really great question that nobody's ever asked me. And are you referring to somebody who. Might need a lawyer or be implicated in a legal situation or someone who's already in it.

[00:36:57] Carmen: You know what I say? Let's answer both. Um, I have someone who. Currently right now is in need of a lawyer and they're just being completely overwhelmed. And they asked me and I'm like, I am the wrong person to ask. 

[00:37:13] And I would never step on that. So, yeah, let's answer kind of both if, if you don't mind.

[00:37:18] Nicole: No, of course. So. What I would say about someone who's looking for a lawyer and having to hire, I mean, who is the lawyer's worst critic? Me. I mean, when I'm having to hire one for myself, I've been through like 10 of them. Um, but something that I wish I would've known then that I didn't know and I know now is that.

[00:37:48] Treat them like an employee that you're trying to hire, because that's essentially what you're doing.

[00:37:54] Carmen: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:55] Nicole: Don't be ashamed to vet them because that's what you get to do, 

[00:38:01] Carmen: Right. 

[00:38:02] Nicole: and to ask them the hard questions. What's gonna happen if you offend them? Then you offend them and they're not the person for you.

[00:38:11] Carmen: Oh, that's a good one. Yeah,

[00:38:14] Nicole: And then.

[00:38:15] Carmen: go ahead.

[00:38:16] Nicole: Going back to the trial thing, I think that that is really a good vetting process to say, how many trials have you ever had? What kinds of cases were those? How many did you win? What's your definition of winning? Because to be fair, definition of winning can be different based on the case. In other words, like if I get a lower sentence than we ever expected, I consider that a win.

[00:38:42] Carmen: That's a win. Of course. That's a win. Yeah. Um.

[00:38:46] Nicole: mostly I consider the acquittal the win,

[00:38:49] Carmen: Right. Um, well, the acquittal of course, would be the win. But wait, so does an acquittal mean that you can't retry the case though? Like, if you get an acquittal, does that mean they can come back and prosecute you anyway?

[00:39:02] Nicole: no double jeopardy attaches. The second that.

[00:39:07] Carmen: I clearly have not watched enough law and order to know these answers, so I apologize. I apologize. What's one action, uh, like a regular person can take to better understand or protect their rights? Okay. I say, okay, I'm gonna answer this on the Carmen Way.

[00:39:25] Nicole: The Constitution.

[00:39:26] Carmen: what I was gonna say. I say it all the time. I say it all the time and I have my little booklet. I show it all the time like your, you should know your constitution and you should have it with you.

[00:39:38] Nicole: Yes. I freaked out the other day and I still went, found it. I moved into this house like four years ago and I am missing my pocket constitution, and I'm so pissed about it because it's highlighted and notated and I, but it's okay. Like I know it like the back of my hand Now, however, a girlfriend of mine who is also a lawyer, a very.

[00:40:02] We're friends because we used to be opponent. She was a prosecutor, but I was like, okay, let's talk about this. What constitutional amendments apply here? And we were like, Hmm, what's the third amendment again?

[00:40:14] Carmen: Right, exactly. Exactly.

[00:40:17] Nicole: I, it's housing soldiers during war.

[00:40:19] Carmen: Oh my God. I would've never remembered that.

[00:40:22] Nicole: I mean, so then we challenged ourselves to like all of them, and we got some of them wrong, and that was embarrassing, but that's why.

[00:40:30] Carmen: shouldn't be embarrassing. I mean, it's a small pocket, like it's a small document, but it's dense. 'cause I don't, I I, I've read my constitution probably six, seven times in the past 10 years. Like, I always refer to it, but I mean, reading it from beginning and, and it's still, it's hard to understand.

[00:40:49] It's not easy.

[00:40:50] Nicole: It also says all men are created equal.

[00:40:53] Carmen: Ugh.

[00:40:54] Nicole: Like there's no women,

[00:40:56] Carmen: I know. That's why I went, ugh, like whatever, and let's not get started on three fourths of a person. Okay. So

[00:41:04] Nicole: right, right.

[00:41:06] Carmen: you 

[00:41:07] Nicole: um

[00:41:08] There was something else you just brought up though. The Constitution. I'm

[00:41:13] sorry. It'll come back to me. I forgot.

[00:41:15] Carmen: Oh no, I, um, I was gonna tell you, well, you know this, so I, I apologize. I'm really saying this more for the audience 'cause I know you know this, but you can still get a pocket constitution@thewhitehouse.gov website. At least you could during the Biden administration, because I went and bought like 10 of them and they're not that expensive, you know what I mean?

[00:41:37] And, and I got like 10 of them and then handed them out to friends. Um.

[00:41:41] Nicole: mean, I think you can even get, um, oh wait, I'm

[00:41:44] Carmen: I think you can get 'em at the A CLU as well. but it just depends. I mean, you can get them everywhere, but, they're not that expensive at all. And I don't know if 

[00:41:54] Nicole: is telling me it's free, but it's not

[00:41:57] Carmen: where it, it's not free at the White House. It's

[00:41:59] not. 

[00:42:01] Nicole: Yeah. I mean, my

[00:42:02] advice would 

[00:42:02] Carmen: it.

[00:42:04] Nicole: go to half price books or something. It's gonna be, I mean, it'll be there, but carry it. You put it in your car. Would be my suggestion. Um, oh, and this is what I was gonna say is that my biggest advice to the general public who doesn't know that they're gonna need a lawyer is if you encounter the police and they want to talk to you. Then the immediate first question off should be, am I free to leave? The second one should be. reserve the right to not answer that question

[00:42:44] Carmen: Right,

[00:42:45] Nicole: or anything that politely and professionally indicates. If I, if you can't tell me why I'm not free to leave, then I'm not gonna answer the questions. And even if they tell you why you are not free to leave and are taking you, you know, to jail to book you in, then still do not answer the questions and the bigger, broader.

[00:43:08] Point that I think most people don't understand is that anytime that you're encountering the police, you automatically are implicating the sixth amendment right to a lawyer, right to a jury trial, right to confrontation. Because if the police are involved then and they're involving you by force, then it automatically implicates your criminal, right.

[00:43:35] Carmen: But is it best? Okay, this is an interesting question for me anyways. Is it best not to talk to the police if they ask you a question? I've always,

[00:43:45] Nicole: do not answer.

[00:43:48] Carmen: wow. Okay.

[00:43:49] Nicole: You might piss them off. You might have to go to jail for a night.

[00:43:53] Carmen: Well, no, no, no. Like I've, I mean, I've been stopped a few times in my life, of course. Um, and when I say stopped, I mean like I'm sitting in my car and a police will come up and ask me what am I doing here? Right. I talked about that in one of our other episodes. Um, something that happened here in California.

[00:44:09] I live in a very liberal blue state part of the state, you know, and, um, and it happened to me 'cause I was sitting outside of a school yard waiting for Whole Foods to. Open and the garage hadn't opened. So I was sitting, um, and there was no one in the like, and it doesn't even matter, but there was no one, like, it was a, a a a day where it was like a day off or something.

[00:44:31] So there were no kids in the playground or whatever. But I was just sitting in my car and a cop car came behind me and a cop car came in front of me to ask me what I was doing. And I, I answered them. 'cause you get the fear of God in you as well. 

[00:44:45] Nicole: You do, especially someone coming behind you as a female.

[00:44:51] Carmen: Yeah.

[00:44:51] Nicole: Um, but

[00:44:55] Carmen: But you would say that I should have said nothing. I should have said I reserve the right, um, not to

[00:45:00] Nicole: the only thing I would advise you to say is turn on your body cam.

[00:45:06] Carmen: Ooh, okay.

[00:45:10] Nicole: Am I free to leave?

[00:45:12] Carmen: Am I free to

[00:45:12] Nicole: I reserve the right not to answer that question

[00:45:16] Carmen: Okay, now I know. Yeah. I've

[00:45:19] Nicole: it overlap the the, and what a lot of people don't understand is. The lack of moral judgment sometimes and, and cops are humans just like us, right? Like I'm not faulting them as a whole, but quotas are a real thing that exists.

[00:45:40] Carmen: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:42] Nicole: Yeah, 

[00:45:43] It overlaps

[00:45:45] Carmen: right. They shouldn't be. They should not be.

[00:45:49] Nicole: governments, especially in small towns because

[00:45:51] Carmen: Yeah, that's sad. How can we bring this back to Joy? I'm trying, like, how can we bring this back to joy? It's

[00:46:01] Nicole: Well, I think that knowledge is power, right?

[00:46:04] Carmen: No, you're no. 

[00:46:05] Nicole: if you know these things, then instead of being surprised by them, then you know how to react and how to do it in a way that doesn't make you like, look or appear like an emotional mess.

[00:46:19] Carmen: And I did the, the last time it happened here in Santa Monica. I did, I, I mean, I was of course shaken, but, uh, because they called, so they pulled up behind me. I was just parked. I wasn't, I was on my phone. I wasn't, you know, I was just waiting and, um. They talked to me. I didn't get, I didn't have to get outta the car, but then they called for backup and that's why the cop car came in front and, you know, black Latino woman, I'm sorry.

[00:46:46] Especially 'cause during that time, I think that was right when, um. Sandra Bland had been killed. You know what I mean? Like there was there, you know, look, it, you know what I'm talking about. We're not tiptoeing around anything. you grow up feeling a certain way, but I, you know, I do the whole like, yes sir, duh, duh.

[00:47:01] No ma'am. it was because I'm not gonna get defensive 'cause I know the power they have. But what I've learned from you is that I have the right to remain silent. But I can also ask them, please put on your body cam. The other thing that I learned is that I can say, am I,free to leave?

[00:47:19] And they should be able to say, yes, you're free to leave. But they'll probably say no. And then what 

[00:47:24] Nicole: And then, then you say, why not?

[00:47:28] Carmen: Why not?

[00:47:30] Nicole: So

[00:47:30] Carmen: And then what if he says, okay, but then he says, we, you're suspicious you're sitting out here. Because that's what happened. Somebody called and said, there's a suspicious car, by the way, a Honda Civic, a 2004 Honda Civic tan car. Like I was in prim, like primo condition, but whatever. Um, I, I, I think they called 'cause I was a black woman sitting in a white neighborhood.

[00:47:53] That's 

[00:47:54] Nicole: nobody called,

[00:47:55] Carmen: Oh 

[00:47:56] Nicole: I think nobody called. Yeah, I think it was a quota situation. 

[00:47:59] Carmen: you are right. I never even thought about that, that nobody called, because I still wanna hold the police in high

[00:48:06] Nicole: Lemme guess. They told you it was a welfare check.

[00:48:10] Carmen: I don't know if they said that.

[00:48:12] Nicole: Okay. That's, that's one of the like catchalls. 

[00:48:15] Carmen: So they're doing this for quotas because I'm sure 

[00:48:20] Nicole: They get paid. The government gets paid money for the days you're in jail.

[00:48:25] Carmen: Nicole, I'm so sad. Like it just bums me out because I know, you know the law, you understand the stuff that's going on. So I kind of, but I think we need to know this stuff, this, and I love what I just learned today too, you know? 'cause I'm always hyper scared, you know, whenever I see a cop, you know? 

[00:48:46] Will you come back on the show and talk some more and maybe we can have you come on the Friday night live and answer other people's questions? I,

[00:48:55] I just feel like, I feel like we're just starting to have, like, the conversation I, um, I just, I, I have so many more questions.

[00:49:04] I do. Um,

[00:49:07] Nicole: I would love to do that. I think public knowledge is really the key to. Making our justice system more equal and whole.

[00:49:17] Carmen: Yeah. maybe we can have you back sooner rather than later. I just wanna say thank you so much. Are there any last pieces of advice you wanna maybe share with our audience? What's something people do that they should not be doing like in any context whatsoever? Regarding

[00:49:35] Nicole: Don't talk. Um. I would, I would say mostly be aware.

[00:49:45] Carmen: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:46] Nicole: Call out the wrongdoings. Otherwise, keep your mouth shut.

[00:49:52] Carmen: Oh, hello? And on that note, uh, yeah. Um, everyone, thank you so much for hanging out with us. We're gonna have

[00:50:00] Nicole back for sure. Um, but remember at the end of the day, it really is all about the joy. Thank you everyone, and thank you Nicole for being here. Thank you. Bye everyone. Bye.

[00:50:12] Nicole: Bye.